Now, Pagliuca, should there have been penalties or not?
“I can’t say that I saw it well enough, not from where I was, but my teammates assured me that we should have had two penalty shots, and I agree after seeing the replays on TV at night. Milan probably should have had one as well, even though it seemed like Kaka had let himself go a little. Abatantuono said the same thing, and I don’t think it was because he’s from Bologna.”

What do you think when this kind of thing happens? That you didn’t get the penalties because you were playing against Milan?
“Those were hand fouls, and it’s possible that the referee didn’t see them. It happens. Even though Pirlo’s foul seemed pretty obvious to me. Fact is, if you let a team like Milan get ahead, there’s no way out. Against a team like that, you have to play very carefully, you can’t make a single mistake. But if they don’t score on us, it gets difficult for them. We were playing well, the two teams seemed equal. After the goal, they imposed the rhythm they wanted. Milan is not like Juve, which always puts furious pressure on you.”

Speaking of Kaka. He has been compared to so many greats, who does he remind you of?
“He’s still so young, and he’s already such a great player. When he takes off, he moves incredibly well, he never lets the goal out of his sight, he’s never afraid, and he shoots with amazing power. He’s very bright and really good. If we remember that it took Platini 4 months to figure out our championship, and remember what he did at 21, who knows what Kaka will be like. Mancini? No, Mancio was more of a striker. I think Kaka is more similar to Antognoni, and he may be even better. Faster, with a better sense of the game.”

Face to face with you, though, Kaka lost. Good shot, but Pagliuca performed a miracle.
“I think he was sure he would score. Even I was astonished that I got that ball. I saw it all again at night on TV. I did well, but he made a mistake. In the second half, he almost beat me with an impressive shot from the outside. Like the one Recoba scored against Siena. I was at home, watching that game, and my friend said: ‘But Generoso Rossi didn’t even move on Recoba’s shot.’ I said, if you can stop that, it’s yours. These guys have a tremendous shot: fast, precise, and deadly.”

Milan also has good reserves. Anybody would love to have Tomasson.
“In the front they have three really good players. Sheva is one of those that always get to me, he always scores on me, but I’m not the only one he scores on. And it’s been written already: Milan will win the championship, while Champions League will be decided between Juve and Milan. Even if they say they want to do better in Champions League, I think Milan has already set sights on the tenth scudetto. But they will still have to be careful of Inter: it’s not a direct rival as far as standings go, but in the derby for sure – they can lose points there.”

Do you ever think of the possibility of relegation? Are you afraid?
“No, “afraid” is not the right word. You can say I think about it, I’m very much aware of it, because we are six points away from the fourth team from the bottom, and I think if the game at Udine doesn’t go well, and then also the derby with Modena, we’ll be in trouble again. Also because Juve is coming up after that.”

Are you saying you will lose at Udine?
“No, I think we’ll turn it around at Udine.”

Then Modena comes to Dall’Ara.
“Well, we’ll win. We need four to six points in the next two games, then we can face Juve pretty calm.”

Modena has Ballotta, who is even older than you.
“This thing about age is kind of strange. If Buffon makes a mistake, he’s having a bad time. If I make a mistake, or Ballotta, it’s the age. I’ve never felt as good. The Parma and Milan games showed that.”

Gazzoni says that he would like to tie you fast to the Two Towers.
“I was very happy to hear his words. My goal is to play until I’m 40. I have played in 516 games, and Zoff’s record is within sight. I want to beat it.”

Who’s Udinese’s best player?
“Jorgensen, the giant. And I think Spalletti is very good. He always gets the goal.”

How much has Signori’s absence hurt?
“Quite a bit, but he should be back against Modena. It’s not by chance that Beppe is a captain. And he’s always looking towards a goal, even if he is not as fast as ten years ago.”

Then there’s Mazzone…
“I owe him a lot.”

Why?
“Because he is brave, he defended me when everybody was against me, and said: ‘Pagliuca is indispensable for us’. He’s made a difference. He’s at his best when there is trouble, he knows how to keep the team calm.”

Better than Guidolin?
“They are two different coaches, but even with Guidolin I always knew where I stood.”

Guidolin made you compete with Manninger, were you unhappy with that?
“No. I wasn’t worried. Guidolin came to me and said: ‘You are the principal keeper and I trust you. Of course, if things don’t go well, I need to have an alternative.’”

Guidolin put a lot of importance on tactics.
“Mazzone doesn’t ignore it, either, but Mazzone is more concerned with physical conditioning. He doesn’t just think about the ball. It’s not a coincidence that his teams do great in the second round. I hope that also works for us. It’s obvious that we’re getting better. And we can run into the ninetieth minute.”

Is Nakata a good player or just a media phenom?
“Nakata is a great player, and a great professional. He trains conscientiously, always doing more than he’s asked.”

What do you think of Guidolin at Palermo?
“It’s a bit strange, but he made the right choice. He needed to start back up in Serie B, and with a serious project. All the big benches in Serie A were taken. Palermo will get back into Serie A, and next season could be like today’s Samp.”

When you look at the scores, what match do you go to first? After Bologna, what is your team?
“Inter. I have a great relationship with Facchetti, I heard from him when he became president, and he called me when my son was born. And also after my 500th match in Serie A. I’m glad when Inter does well, unfortunately, that doesn’t happen much.”

Did you see what happened to Materazzi on Sunday?
“I’m sorry, because he’s my colleague, and I know him. It was a very ugly thing to do. Facchetti was right to say the management will punish him.”

What is Inter’s problem?
“The head. It’s some kind of complex. I was talking to someone who played both at Inter and at Milan, and he said that it’s more laid-back at Milan, even when they lose. It’s the management’s problem: Inter has a little less power in TV and the papers, and that counts as well. And then there is the laid-back attitude. At Inter, it’s more frenetic, there’s too much pressure on winning, and they tend to exaggerate even the smallest problem. They lose one game, and they think, here it is, another year all messed up, we won’t win anything this time either. Everyone shares the blame for this.”

Even Moratti?
“Moratti is a fan, a president from the old mold: if you win, he’ll give you anything, but if you lose, he gets mad.”

Did he ever explain to you why he kicked you out of Inter?
“We talked just amonth ago, saw each other after Zamorano’s farewell game. He told me that I would still be at Inter if it weren’t for Lippi.”

Do you dislike Lippi?
“No, I don’t dislike him. When we meet, we say hello, usually. At that time, I was hurt, but now I’m very happy about how things turned out. Otherwise I would not have come to Bologna, and maybe I would never have made it here. It’s better this way.”

Do you still get excited when you play?
“Very much. My stomach turns.”

What do you mean?
“It’s like a little hook that claws at your insides. If you don’t feel that, you’re done. I always feel that way, every Sunday.”

Haven’t you had enough?
“No, not at all. Sometimes when I think that sooner or later I’ll have to quit I wonder what Sundays without soccer will feel like. The answer is “bad”. At least at the beginning, many colleagues tell me it’s a strange feeling.”

Where do you see yourself in ten years?
“I don’t have a good answer. Let’s say that sometimes I think I’ll be coaching. Then I say to myself, I don’t know if I’ll enjoy all the running around. Then I think, maybe I’ll be helping an agent, or work as a scout for Bologna. I still have some time to decide.”

What do you need to be like to be a coach?
“Different from what I’m like, probably. I’m easy-going, jovial, I tend to be friendly. But it’s possible to change. There are some former players now working as coaches that have changed radically. They have become meaner.”

How was Boskov?
“An old-time coach, from the school of the game that is no more. He was a very funny person.”

Eriksson?
“Phenomenal. Very respectful. He came to the field and shook hands with everybody. I’ve never seen him lose his head. He was so polite that you had to respect him, you could not do less.”

What moment from your soccer career sticks in your head the most? A lost final, a save, a penalty you didn’t stop?
“My permanent obsession is the Champions Cup final against Barcelona. Not so much the World Cup, that we lost on penalties after having given everything, and more. But that final at Wembley is still right here, winning with Samp would have been the best. I have the tape, every once in a while I watch it again.”

Why?
“Because I want to hurt myself. I have a crazy tape collection at home, I have tapes of all my games with the National team, almost all the ones from the cup competitions, and all of Bologna’s matches. Every once in a while I watch the wins.”

And what does your wife say?
“’Enough.’ She can’t take it. She hates soccer. My son Mattia likes it a lot, though. He’s always kicking a ball around. He sees me on TV and says ‘papa’.”

Would you like him to become a soccer player?
“Absolutely.”

A goalkeeper?
“Absolutely not. A striker.”

How is Pagliuca as a dad?
“A great dad. I always play with my son. And I get up for him during the night, I change him. I do everything to take care of him. I help Aurora. And I like it.”

Santana, Chievo’s argentine player, scored a goal on you with a beautiful shot, and Tomasson let him have another.
“It’s become fashionable now. Everybody does it. The thing is that with the defense so far out and with the need to pay attention to the strikers breaking through, the goalkeepers have to be 3 or 4 meters in front of the line. And the strikers have gotten smart.”

What would be a dream game for a keeper?
“The one against Parma, when I saved all those shots. And we took one point home, thanks to me.”

Which team has the best game this season?
“Roma. It was most impressive against us.”

Did you anticipate their decline?
“No, but it’s a fact. Sure, against us they were phenomenal, but against Brescia they looked dead, tripping over themselves. They looked like Bologna did in the last games of the past season. It’s a question of conditioning. Fortunately for them, Sunday they play against Juve, they will certainly have quite a game. But Juve is not going to lose, that’s for sure.”

What do you think about Parma’s situation?
“It’s ugly. But I agree with Gazzoni, in the end, rules must prevail, and rules must be the same for everyone.”

You have decreased your salary.
“Maybe I’m the first. It’s normal. A mediocre player cannot earn three billion. That’s why soccer has come to this. Average players have been paid like geniuses. You can’t say anything against fifteen billion for Zidane or Ronaldo, but if you overpay a regular Joe, you’re finished.”

You could have gone to England for the money.
“That’s true, it happened in 1999, but I preferred Bologna. It was a choice. I refused the money, sure, but I’ve never been attracted by a foreign championship.”

Is there a new goalkeeper that is like you?
“Sereni, a little bit.”

He’s in a rather difficult period.
“I know, but he’s the one most like me in various ways. He was my third keeper at Sampdoria. He was 17 years old and was in great shape. I remember that he went to school in his team jacket and told everybody: ‘I am Pagliuca’s reserve.’”

Speaking of Samp, what do you think of Bazzani?
“He’s great.”

That’s all?
“No, he’s a wonderful player and nowadays he makes no mistakes.”

Bazzani is a crazy Fortitudo fan, and you are a fan of Virtus.
“Many of my friends are Fortitudo fans.”

But they don’t celebrate by wearing a shirt with a little boy peeing on Virtus’s grave.
“Even Bazzani knows that was wrong. It happens. I’ve been wrong, too. But it can’t become a habit.”

Why do you get booed when you return to Genoa?
“Because I’m the adversary, but I’m sure they remember me well. I spent some beautiful years at Genoa that will always remain in my heart.”

If Lippi was the National team coach, would you root for them?
“Yes, of course. That bench seems to be made for him. Of for Capello.”

Who will win the European Championship?
“Italy. Or Portugal.”